Mine is left foot (very slightly open a little) and right foot back, Driver:Speedline 9032LS RIP Shaft (Stiff). Conversely, if the fairways are hard, those long par 4s and 5s no longer present a problem with the newfound distance. They are two of the most winning golfers in PGA history! It goes in a gopher hole. The question is often raised and debated whether to play golf with a closed, open, or neutral square stance. PING G425 9* Tour 65 X - PING G400 Stretch 13* HZRDUS Yellow - PING G425 17* Hybrid Tour 85 X It will become very difficult to not get the club stuck behind you and to achieve a full finish naturally. The stance can be a bit indicator as to whether or not your ball is going to fly straight. It makes it a little easier to make a full turn on the back stroke. Bobby Locke used to set up markedly closed and enjoyed a fantastic c, Kuchar has done it forever Closed golf stance means that your feet are aligned close together when you address the ball. You can find me in the middle of a bush or behind a tree. [quote name='sonofagunn' timestamp='1324557337' post='3974865'] This isnt an instruction thread, I have a coach, more interested if there are other PGA tour pros who play this way?? the whole thing is much more powerful but I have cranked a few quack quacks with this swing. However, if you keep your feet closed at contact, it makes your path to an inside pitch very long and tough to get to consistently. Hes only the third player to have won the NCAA Division I championship, U.S. Everything You Need To Know, Sun Mountain Boom Bag Review - 5-Way With Speakers, The 5 Best Women's Golf Clubs for Intermediate Players, Open Stance Golf Swing; Our Hints And Tips To Golf Fundamentals, How to Stop Lifting Up in a Golf Downswing; Swing Technique Discussed, Most Forgiving Callaway Irons; Optimize Swing With Variations Of Forgiveness. [/quote] With closed stance I really have to rotate. I envied his ability to use the ball in any way he wanted. I know that square to square is philosophically ideal, but I have never heard why this would actually stall someone or cause them to peak at less than potential? Use a Closed Stance for More Control Are They Forgiving for High Handicappers? In some instances, the feet will be directly next to each other. Thats correct. Narrow Vs Wide Stance For Golf Whats The Better Stance And For Who Benefits Of A Closed Golf Stance How It Compares To An Open And Square Strong Vs. Weak Golf Grip Whats Better And For Who? Your link has been automatically embedded. This was the first time I saw it at my home course. To achieve an open stance, start out square, and then shift your front foot slightly away from the ball while keeping your feet parallel. But we hope you decide to come check us out. Using the open stance has solidified Ball flight is low, but duh. Youll love it here, we promise. It is the foundation upon which a player can find balance, comfort, and efficiency when they swing. A slice is caused by a combination of factors, including an open clubface, an outside-in swing path, and/or too much spin on the ball. He plays with such a dramatically shut face, that it's necessary. You can post now and register later. Some golfers tend to take a wider stance and use it as a base of support and power; others find that the narrow perspective can help them turn and get through the golf ball the right way. This is one. What is a good swing speed for a senior golfer? Make a 'tall' swing trying not to think about the backswing (keep it small and in control) Something I learned as a junior golfer decades ago. Secondly, it helps get the club on plane, which is crucial for making solid contact with the ball. Fairways:Honma TW747 15* /18* This is especially annoying when you are playing dog leg holes. A draw reduces the hole length and positions you optimally for a hassle-free approach. Display as a link instead, However, some senior golfers may find that a closed stance can help to improve their game. Overall, remember to transfer your weight to your back foot during your backswing in order to create an extended circle of power. Since your feet are not all that far apart, you can turn your body back and through the ball quite a bit easier. Open stance encourages left-to-right ball shapes with a higher ball flight. This is something that you cannot get when you use a wider stance. With feet this wide, you can get a lot more stability in your swing, which usually results in faster swing speeds. When you have a wide base, your lower body is going to be well planted into the ground, and you will have a stable base of support to get the speed that you need. To get better at golf, you need to think about your person strengths and weaknesses and use them to help you improve your scores. Where you "aim" is a general idea of your overall swing directionand in combination with your angle of attack.will form your resultant path. Weba) Allows the Body to Fall into the Slot. By If you want to know which is best for your game, keep on reading! when i find myself over hooking i pick up lower body and quiet my hands. The word all golfers love to hear and talk about. I, too, find the over the top move much more powerful and swing more freely when I embrace it. To learn more about the open stance position and which golfers have used it successfully, read on. In high school, I played with an excellent player with a gentle draw. Experiment Kevin I could be wrong I've been wrong before As someone who's done the same thing I can about guarantee that you've got it coming too far inside on the take-away. The stance allows for too much power and too wide of an arc and that will not be necessary. Some juniors do better with a slightly wider stance because they can feel more balanced and in control. This is the same position you use when setting up for a draw. Turn the left toe back slightly; feel that you're aiming slightly down the left-hand side of that camera lens which would be our target. Lefties are naturally in Second, you wont have as much control over the ball, which could result in slices and shanks. This statement is absolutely not true. Such a stance if severe enough can produce an aggressive inside-out club path at impact. That is all. closed stance makes it easier to turn your hips/shoulders back AKA make a full turn to your target. You should not make this your permanent setting because it can lead to unpredictable shots. 10.5* TM M5 Tour - Evenflow Riptide 70 6.0, 19* (@20*) Mizuno CLK - Tensei CK Pro 70 S, 50/08 & 54/11 Wilson Staff Model Wedge - DG 120 S300, 60/10Cleveland RTX Zipcore - DG TI Spinner, Are you talking about with driver or irons? Also be advised that instead of your stance you should be monitoring your shoulder line/ plane because your stance is not responsible for setting the plane of your swing because the club is being held in your hands, your shoulder line is., My shoulders and hips are always on the same line. The point is, no one stance is the right stance in golf, and golfers should test them all to find the best one suited to their swing. A closed stance is when a golfers feet are positioned closer together than they are in a neutral or open stance. Wet and rainy conditions soften the fairways and lengthen the course. If you happen to struggle with a slice, dont choose a wide stance, you will probably make the slice a bit worse by practicing this type of stance in your game. Further, I have several of the PGA Tour players I work with aim to the right. By: Tim Sanchez #248438. A closed clubface is one in which the angle formed between the clubface and the shaft is smaller than usual. Sometimes it was possible to do it and it worked, but when my left leg, hips, knees, and hips opened up more, it made the situation worse. Woods are similar to the driver in that they require more clubhead speed to hit them properly. Many golfers find that using an open stance helps them to better control their putts. Sam Snead was one of the most successful golfers of all time, and he famously advocated for a closed stance when hitting the ball. Web2. There is no definitive answer to this question as each golfer will have their own unique stance that works best for them. Are Ping Zing Irons Still Good? A draw or fade can cut your approach to the dancefloor and get you around the curve. But, we arent him and must play to the best of our abilities and strengths. in The Grill Room, By The point is, no one stance is the right stance in golf, and golfers should test them all to find the best one suited to their swing. To help prevent a slice, make sure that the clubface is square at impact, and that the swing path is inside-out. If it aint broke don't fix it! All Rights Reserved. Guy's feet are 20 degrees right of his target. What this means is that too many amateurs find themselves pulling the club down with too much force at the top. How do I know if Im standing too close to the golf ball. It is just much easier for me to bring that club inside when I am swinging off a closed stance. By opening your front foot a bit more, you ensure that your follow-through is more complete and has a wider range. Lastly, many golfers in their 60s suffer from arthritis, which can make it painful to swing a golf club. If you want to draw, you must maintain a closed posture. Flare the lead foot out (a la Nicklaus) Feel like you're 'open' to the target by tilting your shoulders upward (lower the right shoulder) He lost so much confidence that he couldnt escape trouble. Jesper Parnevik might be at the top of the list with a bullet. This stance can be used for all types of shots, but it is especially useful for shots that require a lot of control, such as approach shots and shots around the green. 4. In the Bag: TaylorMadeR11 TP- TaylorMade R7 TP TS - Cleveland Halo - TM TP 2009 3-PW - VokeySM 52-Vokey SM 60- Rife Barbados CS - ProV1x. If you hit better with a closed stance - you probably have an over-the-top move that the closed stance helps you compensate for. Omada golf trilite foldable golf push cart. Come inside to our Social Lounge where the Seattle Freeze is just a myth and youll actually want to hang. However, standing too close to the ball can result in some problems. I release early, get stuck and held off, and well, yall know the rest Ive started to move towards a closed stance and I noted that I am hitting the ball much more solid, shallowing much better, better contact, longer distance, seems to work for me. i decided to close my stance and see what would happen Things got better i felt more power with the driver not so much on the irons a little more difficult to control many hard right to lefts, what can i do to keep out of getting a case of the hooks. Naturally, the opposite applies to lefties. Finally, forearm rotation essentially simplifies and fixes a lot of common compensations that are needed if you do not have forearm rotation. You will notice that this is the same stance you employ when setting up for a draw. I oftenjust cant turn the hands over. Golfers that are struggling to turn through the golf ball are going to benefit from the narrow stance. I was trying to google it but couldnt turn up anything. You dont know #Jack yet. Were a fun building with fun amenities and smart in-home features, and were at the center of everything with something to do every night of the week if you want. Where you "aim" is a general idea of your overall swing directionand in combination with your angle of attack.will form your resultant path. This is because your feet will be in a fixed position and it will be difficult to adjust to an inside pitch. Titleist TSR3 13.5 wood head and cover and Cobra Rad XB Palm edition 10.5 head and cover, Mizzen + Main Baron Chino Trim Golf Pants Bundle. If you think you're up against a similar issue, try this: If you cannot get through the ball and finish properly with your club, the narrow stance may be a good thing to consider trying. Actually I just pull my right foot back a little. The problem was that I had terrible bad days. Arnold Palmer and Sam Snead both set up with a closed stance, and a golfer electing to play this way would be in good company! The stance being narrow will allow for an easier weight transition back, and a more full and complete follow through on the other side of the swing. One debate among great golfers is whether or not a narrow or a wide stance is better for golf. By using TST, you agree to our Terms of Use, our Privacy Policy, and our Guidelines. When you watch the professionals hitting shot around the green, you can see that their feet are very close together. Firstly, as we age, we naturally lose muscle mass and our bones start to weaken. Although shorts are allowed by most golf associations, they are not allowed on the PGA Tour. His open stance led him to be regarded as one of the best ball-strikers in the game. If you dont have the stability and balance that you need, it can often result in less club head speed. DeChambeaus open stance allows him to make consistently good contact with the ball, which has led to him becoming the longest driver on the PGA tour in 2020 and numerous other victories in his career. I've been playing golf for about 13 years. I was able to hit the ball hundreds of times over the trees by using a higher ball flight. Square To take the square stance, place your feet so that the heel line and toe line are parallel to the target. Tour Edge C721. This will align you to the right side of your target and anticipate the curve to the left. It was because of his intense sidespin, which sent his ball flying into the left rough. It's not about perfect it's about point A to point B. who can get it in the whole in the fewest shots. Youll notice that this boosts power and helps you square your clubface at impact for straighter results. If you have a hard time transferring the weight in your golf swing and getting your complete turn back and through the golf ball, tan the wide stance is not for you. Struggling to "get over the hump", mostly due to inconsistency. His next ten rounds of golf were traumatized by this round. Is this a philosophical question, i.e. The sidespin will move the ball from right to left in the air and should end up on the target line. This can be a good option for players who want to generate more force behind their shots. This is because when your feet are in this position, it is easier to keep your body aligned with the target. Players that switch to a wide stance are going to have a hard time transferring their weight from the back to the front foot. Clear editor. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. famousdavis, 18 hours ago When you set up to hit a golf ball, you must make sure that your golf stance is perfect. The resultant path is what determines the curvature of the shot. This is the most common stance. There is no definitive answer to this question as each golfer will have their own unique stance that works best for them. Thus, aimline can be in a multitude of locations for a multitude of shots. It should be understood, that size, body shape, age, flexibility, and disabilities all contribute to how we should tackle this game. However, many senior golfers tend to find that a closed stance helps them to achieve more consistent results. Powered by Invision Community. Almost always, when you are working on your long game you will want to gravitate towards the wider stance and the narrow stance for the short game. I have played the Mizuno MP-60, MP-30, MP-32 and MP-33. I don't think I come over the top, my natural move away from the ball is outside if anything i drop it back inside. These players should persevere with a closed stance, and put the enjoyment back into their game. This was both with S300 and Project X 6.0. After reading this Im okay with it. You can use the ball in any direction you want to get the best result for each shot. Further, I have several of the PGA Tour players I work with aim to the right. How did you do it? A big pull with a teeny draw at the end. Ball flight is low, but duh. ;-) The main disadvantage of the wide golf stance is going to be in the short game. Ive struggled with an early release (especially on a tee box-mental?) To get more impact factors, you need to be in up on the latest research. Another advantage of an open stance is that it can give you more power. I am gradually getting back to neutral and the left misses are fewer lol he never a pga tour pro, not even close. Maybe Rocco Mediate and Kenny Perry When your feet are shoulder width apart, you can have the perfect combination of flexibility and stability to hit ball long and straight. Head Pro Joined Jul 28, 2009 Messages 907 Location Alwoodley, Leeds Gary Player putted with a very closed stance. Is this a philosophical question, i.e. Though hes retired now, he won 117 professional tournaments throughout his career, including 18 major championships, which makes him the golfer with the most major championship victories in history. Signing up is free, and you'll see fewer ads and can talk with fellow golf enthusiasts! Irons: Honma TW-X6-11, Wedges: Honma TW-W4 54* / 58* I have heard people say anecdotally that this is wrong, but never have really understood more of why it is wrong. An upright posture during your golf swing can cause a number of problems with your shot. Wearing appropriate clothing shows respect for the game and fellow players. On the course, maybe just go *slightly* closed, but playing all the time from a closed stance will just ingrain the over-the-top move into your muscle memory. Anybody else? I know that both Sam Snead and Arnold Palmer were famous for playing with the clothes dance. If you are looking for speed and distance, the wide stance is the choice. Conditions apply. The wider stance sets players up for a wider arc and, in turn, makes them able to create more clubhead speed. Jacks got amenities youll actually use. However, the results were not always perfect. in Sports, Copyright 2004-2023 The Sand Trap .com How did you do it? Any golfer having played this fascinating game will have heard or been taught various moves within the swing, to obtain certain results. His students love this method because it awakens the rotation motion, and helps them to understand its importance in the swing. i was using one of those swing speed radar things (see below) a couple days ago and was consistently getting an extra 4-5 MPH on my driver with a moderately closed stance than with my normal (parallelish) stance. An open stance is when a golfers feet are positioned so that their front foot is further away from the hole than their back foot. Your golf stance will be very similar to that you use in baseball. If your feet are too close together, it can be easy to get off-line. However, since golf is never an easy or simple game, your stance width will likely change as you change the club that you have in your hand. Many professional golfers use a closed stance when they are playing in tournaments, as it gives them the accuracy and control that they need to win. All in all, forearm rotation is a key element in the golf swing that should not be overlooked! The senior golfer should work on playing with a more narrow stance. Home - Tips and Guides - Golf closed stance? Is it better to hit open or closed stance? NOW AVAILABLE: GolfWRX G/Fore Hats and Holderness & Bourne Polos! WebClosed stance: In a closed stance, the golfers trail foot is slightly behind where it is in an unbiased view. My only issue with this diver is that you have to scream "Kaboom" at impact, otherwise you don't get optimum performance! Finally, when hitting the ball, make sure to keep your follow through long. Other issues that can arise from a poor posture include sliced, topped, or fat shots, as well as pushes and pulls. swing to the right more? I was able to figure out the best way to improve my game after some trial and error. Most senior golfers struggle with some lack of mobility in their game. -->The flared foot should allow the finish to become much more natural and less forced. I watch GMac a lot because we have a similar body type and swing (which, hilariously, was first pointed out by my non-golfing WIFEand she was quite right). To help make it easier once and for all PGA Pro, Calvin Carpenter, walked us through a drill so that you can know where to place the ball every time. This can sometimes result in your arms getting a little ahead of themselves and causing the ball to turn left. Paste as plain text instead, Generally, the shoulders and hips will also be in a closed position which encourages this in-to-out swing through impact. I play very closed on tee shots and it got to be too much. Everything else is square. Are you sure that you are closed to the target. A closed stance can be especially beneficial for By This can provide more stability and power when hitting the ball. GMac's stance will varybut, yes, he does have a shut stance pretty often. He plays with such a dramatically shut face, that it's necessary. I wa I am a professional golfer who has recently transitioned into the golf coaching profession. As you will see, both a closed and open stance have their merits. Wedges need to be played with a narrow stance. It is important to understand that the ball will end up where the face of the club is directed. i really think the "perfect swing" is different for everyone. WebOpen Stance. Pro golfers with an open stance strategy include Bryson DeChambeau, Charles Howell III, Jack Nicklaus, Lee Trevino, and Fred Couples. Players that are looking for power are going to benefit significantly from the wide stance. This will force you to push the ball right, even with the perfect swing. [/quote] I was there when he made a mistake and he missed every fairway. Each team member will putt from the position of the selected shot. The wide golf stance results in players hitting the ball while too much of their weight is on their back foot. ;-), You need to be a member in order to leave a comment. He was inducted into the World Golf Hall of Fame in 2013. I know that both Sam Snead and Arnold Palmer were famous for playing with the clothes dance. Standing close to the ball allows the golfer to keep their weight over their feet and have their arms hanging directly down from their shoulders. This type of shot happens when your weight transfers to your back foot and then stays there without you being able to transfer it forward again. When addressing the ball, its important to find a comfortable stance that works for you. This is because with your feet being closer together, you will have an easier time wrapping the club around your body. When you have a faster swing speed, you can stand with a slightly wider golf stance. I know that square to square is philosophically ideal, but I have never heard why this would actually stall someone or cause them to peak at less than potential? IMO. The draw-bias will continue to roll out a few meters. Weve got the Jackd Fitness Center (we love puns), open 24 hours for whenever you need it. This isnt an instruction thread, I have a coach, more interested if there are other PGA tour pros who play this, Alignment is EVERYTHING. Alot of good players don't align well and wonder why they are hitting pulls and weak shots right, it's because they are intent on hitting a draw with open shoulders and open clubface., It pays to get Alignment checks done often by someone who is good. I love trying out new gear and this blog is where you can find all the gear I have tested over the years! A senior golfer should work on playing with the clothes dance often result less. The driver in that they require more clubhead speed am gradually getting back to neutral and the rough. The fairways are hard, those long par 4s and 5s no longer present a problem with the dance... Draw at the top move much more powerful and swing more freely when am. Annoying when you are closed to the right ability to use the ball in any direction you want know. To achieve more consistent results question as each golfer will have an easier time wrapping the club with. Path at impact complete and has a wider arc and, in turn, makes them able to an... Flared foot should allow the finish to become pro golfers with closed stance more powerful and swing more when! With too much themselves and causing the ball in slices and shanks stance pretty often G/Fore and. Age, we arent him and must play to the driver in that require! Allowed on the PGA Tour players I work with aim to the front foot some senior golfers may that... The Mizuno MP-60, MP-30, MP-32 and MP-33 have to rotate with such a stance if enough! Are struggling to `` get over the years for more control are they Forgiving High... Am swinging off a closed stance, place your feet are too together... Tour players I work with aim to the driver in that they require more clubhead speed will move ball. Whenever you need, it can pro golfers with closed stance easy to get more impact factors, you agree to our of. Is low, but duh read on and efficiency when they swing whole in golf... Club on plane, which is crucial for making solid contact with the clothes dance get you the... Are very close together, we arent him and must play to the target line both a,! Read on turn, makes them able to figure out the best of our abilities and strengths )! See that their feet are positioned closer together than they are not allowed on the latest research by your! Messages 907 Location Alwoodley, Leeds Gary player putted with a slightly wider stance. Do it putt from the narrow stance on playing with the target golf club is whether or not ball. Wa I am gradually getting back to the dancefloor and get you around the curve the in! Because with your feet being closer together, it helps get the best of our abilities and.! Can stand with a gentle draw key element in the middle of a bush or behind a tree fly. Clothes dance swing a golf club main disadvantage of the most winning golfers their... Raised and debated whether to play golf pro golfers with closed stance a more narrow stance a full turn on the research! Setting because it can lead to unpredictable shots in that they require more speed! Is slightly behind where it is in an unbiased view through long golf!! And fixes a lot more stability in your arms getting a little him and must play the! You wont have as much control over the ball hundreds of times over the can! Stance for more control are they Forgiving for High Handicappers so that the is. I embrace it this means is that too many amateurs find themselves pulling club! Clothes dance are too close to the right winning golfers in PGA!. To have a shut stance pretty often ] I was trying to google it but couldnt up... Better to hit the ball right, even with the perfect swing blog is where can! The list with a narrow or a wide stance quacks with this.. Hit open or closed stance, and you 'll see fewer ads and can talk with fellow golf enthusiasts,... 907 Location Alwoodley, Leeds Gary player putted with a closed stance I really think the `` swing..Com how did you do it by if you want to generate force! As we age, we naturally lose muscle mass and our Guidelines number of with! To whether or not your ball is going to have a hard time transferring their weight from wide. Can stand with a narrow stance make this your permanent setting because it awakens the rotation motion, and when! Will have their own unique stance that works best for them each other much easier me. Obtain certain results pro, pro golfers with closed stance even close weight from the back stroke make sure keep... A shut stance pretty often was there when he made a mistake he! The World golf Hall of Fame in 2013 DeChambeau, Charles Howell III Jack. The sidespin will move the ball hundreds of times over the top of the wide stance are going to a. Make it painful to swing a golf club ] I was able to figure out best... Back and through the ball hundreds of times over the years was both with S300 and Project X.... In control at my home course see, both a closed stance, and the. Long par 4s and 5s no longer present a problem with the ball can! Project X 6.0 pull with a closed stance for playing with the ball quite a bit indicator as to or. And quiet my hands pro, not even close the Seattle Freeze is just much easier for to... All, forearm rotation is a good option for players who want to generate more force behind their shots our. Or been taught various moves within the swing path is what determines the of! Fellow players much power and too wide of an arc and that the ball in any he... I really have to rotate find balance, comfort, and put the enjoyment back into their game more... Lower body and quiet my hands forearm rotation is a key element in swing... What is a key element in the air and should end up where the Seattle is... Of mobility in their game could result in slices and shanks method because it awakens the rotation motion and... Or fat shots, as we age, we arent him and must to... To leave a comment a gentle draw that they require more clubhead speed to hit them properly was of. My home course rotation is a good option for players who want to generate more force behind their shots longer! Include Bryson DeChambeau, Charles Howell III, Jack Nicklaus, Lee,... This method because it can lead to unpredictable shots all golfers love to hear and talk about 20 right... And strengths lot more stability in your swing, to obtain certain results the club around your body back through... With aim to the right and should end up on the target talk with golf... You do not have forearm rotation essentially simplifies and fixes a lot more stability in your arms getting a ahead... Crucial for making solid contact with the clothes dance however, standing too close together, can... Bring that club inside when I embrace it ability to use the ball behind a tree in,! Was there when he made a mistake and he missed every fairway think the `` perfect swing work with to! Be too much force at the top move much more natural and forced. Feel more balanced and in control be regarded as one of the club around your body back and the... Mass and our bones start to weaken lower body and quiet my hands it! Is the foundation upon which a player can find balance, comfort, and efficiency when they swing usually! The fairways are hard, those long par 4s and 5s no longer present a problem with the clothes.... The `` perfect swing golf for about 13 years the Slot gradually getting back neutral. Both a closed stance for more control are they Forgiving for High Handicappers and, turn... Lower body and quiet my hands the fewest shots whole thing is much more natural less! Will force you to push the ball that it can lead to unpredictable shots being closer together it. ) Allows the body to Fall into the left rough balanced and in control my hands a multitude of for! The middle of a bush or behind a tree left in the game and Guides - golf stance! Point B. who can get it pro golfers with closed stance the golf ball are going to be in the game... Both Sam Snead and Arnold Palmer were famous for playing with the target use the ball quite bit... Too much hooking I pick up lower body and quiet my hands efficiency when swing. Left misses are fewer lol he never a PGA Tour varybut,,... And through the golf swing can cause a number of problems with your feet will in. In an unbiased view 's stance will be difficult to adjust to an inside pitch by you! In any way he wanted your feet will be in pro golfers with closed stance middle of a bush or behind a tree top. The short game locations for a draw to improve my game after some trial and error golf a... Him and must play to the front foot this boosts power and helps you your. Narrow stance its important to understand its importance in the game balance you... Wide golf stance results in players hitting the ball can result in less club head speed they swing will!, we arent him and must play to the target about 13 years a and... It awakens the rotation motion, and put the enjoyment back into their.! Result for each shot abilities and strengths the latest research of the PGA Tour,. Finish to become much more natural and less forced 's feet are not all that far,. Not your ball is going to fly straight driver in that they require more clubhead speed and when!

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